VPN durant 1sec... pas plus

[_RyO_]

Re-Bonjour <BR>J'ai bien suivi toutes les explications trouvées dans ce forum mais là je sèche <BR>ALors si quelqu'un a la solution ou si la réponse a déja été postée et qu'elle m'a échapée, merci de me faire signe. <BR>Voilà mon problème : <BR>Ma connexion VPN s'établie correctement. Le seule problème c'est qu'elle l'est durant 1 seconde seulement <BR>En effet, je fais un ping sur mon IpCop. Les 3 premiers ping passent et après j'ai un "Délai d'attente de la demande dépassé", à l'infini... <BR>C'est à dire qu'en 1sec, j'ai pas le temps de faire grand chose moi... <BR>Et les logs n'ont pas l'air bizarres : <BR> <BR>Jun 11 22:34:19 ipcop Pluto[13221]: packet from 212.43.201.183:500: ignoring Vendor ID payload <BR>Jun 11 22:34:19 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #3: responding to Main Mode from unknown peer 212.43.201.183 <BR>Jun 11 22:34:20 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #3: STATE_MAIN_R3: sent MR3, ISAKMP SA established <BR>Jun 11 22:34:20 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #4: responding to Quick Mode <BR>Jun 11 22:34:21 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #4: STATE_QUICK_R2: IPsec SA established <BR> <BR>Donc, voilà, je vous laisse avec mon problème <IMG SRC="images/smiles/icon_bawling.gif"> . Désolé... <BR> <BR>En tout cas un gros merci d'avance pour celui/ceux qui m'aidera/ont <BR>

[acdsee]

tu as oublier celle alalalla belugha va pas etre contente <IMG SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> <BR> <BR>enfin le peux de log que tu donne explique pas grand chose <BR> <BR>fait un "cat /var/log/secure" ca devrais donné plus d'info <IMG SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif">

[_RyO_]

Bah oui mais c'est tout ce que j'avais à l'heure ou j'ai posté <BR>La je viens de regarder à nouveau et 1h après, il y a eu plein d'autres messages <BR>Attention les oeils... <BR> <BR>Jun 11 22:39:59 ipcop Pluto[13221]: packet from 212.43.201.51:500: ignoring Vendor ID payload <BR>Jun 11 22:39:59 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #5: responding to Main Mode from unknown peer 212.43.201.51 <BR>Jun 11 22:39:59 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #5: STATE_MAIN_R3: sent MR3, ISAKMP SA established <BR>Jun 11 22:40:00 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #6: responding to Quick Mode <BR>Jun 11 22:40:01 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #6: STATE_QUICK_R2: IPsec SA established <BR>Jun 11 23:27:14 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #1: replacing stale ISAKMP SA <BR>Jun 11 23:27:14 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #7: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:27:15 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #2: replacing stale IPsec SA <BR>Jun 11 23:27:19 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:27:19 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:27:29 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:27:29 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:27:49 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:27:49 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:28:24 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #7: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:28:24 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #7: starting keying attempt 2 of at most 3 <BR>Jun 11 23:28:24 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #8: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:28:38 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:28:38 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:28:59 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:28:59 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:29:34 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #8: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:29:34 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #8: starting keying attempt 3 of at most 3 <BR>Jun 11 23:29:34 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #9: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:29:39 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:29:39 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:29:48 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:29:48 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:29:50 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #3: replacing stale ISAKMP SA <BR>Jun 11 23:29:50 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #10: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:29:51 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #4: replacing stale IPsec SA <BR>Jun 11 23:29:55 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:29:55 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:30:04 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:30:04 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:30:09 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:30:09 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:30:25 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:30:25 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:30:44 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #9: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:31:00 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #10: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:31:00 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #10: starting keying attempt 2 of at most 3 <BR>Jun 11 23:31:00 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #11: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:31:05 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:31:05 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:31:35 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:31:35 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:31:44 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #1: ISAKMP SA expired (LATEST!) <BR>Jun 11 23:31:45 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #2: IPsec SA expired (LATEST!) <BR>Jun 11 23:31:45 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ": deleting connection "XYZ" instance with peer 212.43.201.247 <BR>Jun 11 23:32:10 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #11: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:32:10 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #11: starting keying attempt 3 of at most 3 <BR>Jun 11 23:32:10 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #12: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:32:24 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:32:24 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:32:44 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:32:44 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:33:20 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #12: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:34:20 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #3: ISAKMP SA expired (LATEST!) <BR>Jun 11 23:34:21 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #4: IPsec SA expired (LATEST!) <BR>Jun 11 23:34:21 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ": deleting connection "XYZ" instance with peer 212.43.201.183 <BR>Jun 11 23:35:29 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #5: replacing stale ISAKMP SA <BR>Jun 11 23:35:29 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #13: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:35:31 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #6: replacing stale IPsec SA <BR>Jun 11 23:35:43 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:35:43 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:36:03 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:36:03 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:36:39 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #13: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:36:39 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #13: starting keying attempt 2 of at most 3 <BR>Jun 11 23:36:39 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #14: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:36:44 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:36:44 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:36:53 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:36:53 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:37:13 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:37:13 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:37:49 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #14: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:37:49 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #14: starting keying attempt 3 of at most 3 <BR>Jun 11 23:37:49 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #15: initiating Main Mode <BR>Jun 11 23:37:53 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:37:53 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:38:04 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:38:04 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:38:23 ipcop Pluto[13221]: ERROR: recvfrom() on ppp0 failed in comm_handle (Pluto cannot decode source sockaddr in rejection: unknown source). Errno 113: No route to host <BR>Jun 11 23:38:23 ipcop Pluto[13221]: extended network error info for message to unknown: compainant 212.43.192.46, errno 113 No route to host, origin ICMP (not authenticated) 2, type 3, code 1 <BR>Jun 11 23:38:59 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #15: max number of retransmissions (2) reached STATE_MAIN_I1. No acceptable response to our first IKE message <BR>Jun 11 23:39:59 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #5: ISAKMP SA expired (LATEST!) <BR>Jun 11 23:40:01 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ" #6: IPsec SA expired (LATEST!) <BR>Jun 11 23:40:01 ipcop Pluto[13221]: "XYZ": deleting connection "XYZ" instance with peer 212.43.201.51 <BR> <BR>C grave docteur??? <IMG SRC="images/smiles/icon_confused.gif">

[belugha]

<!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-2>En réponse à:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-2><BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Le 2003-06-12 01:19, acdsee a écrit: <BR>tu as oublier celle alalalla belugha va pas etre contente <IMG SRC="images/smiles/icon_smile.gif"> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End --> <BR>Merci Acdsee. <IMG SRC="images/smiles/icon_bise.gif"> <BR> <BR>Sinon Ryo, je pense que ton pb ne vient pas de la liasison VPN mais de ta connexion PPP. <BR>Explique nous un peu plus ta config ? <BR> <BR>

[_RyO_]

Concrètement j'ai un IPCop 1.2 qui me sert de firewall pour ma connexion ADSL en PPPOE. Derrière j'ai 1 Win2k Server et 3 Win2k Pro. <BR>Je souhaite donc accéder à ce joyeux bazar lorsque je suis en déplacement grâce à une connexion Freesurf, ou autre. <BR>Pour la config VPN, j'ai suivi à la lettre la doc + les explications sur ce forums suite à divers soucis. <BR>Et la suite vous la connaissez. <BR>Sur le sujet, je ne sais pas ce que je peux dire de plus

[belugha]

Poste moi ton ipsec.conf et ipsec.secrets. <BR> <BR>Lorsque que la VPN tombe, as-tu encore la connexion ppp0 sur Ipcop ? <BR> <BR>

[_RyO_]

Voici mon ipsec.conf d'IPCop <BR> <BR>config setup <BR> interfaces=%defaultroute <BR> klipsdebug=none <BR> plutodebug=none <BR> plutoload=%search <BR> plutostart=%search <BR> uniqueids=yes <BR> <BR>conn XYZ <BR> compress=no <BR> left=ryonet.dns2go.com <BR> leftsubnet=192.168.1.0/24 <BR> leftnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> type=tunnel <BR> authby=secret <BR> pfs=yes <BR> right=%any <BR> rightnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> auto=add <BR> <BR>et mon ipsec.secrets d'IPCop <BR> <BR>wam.dns2go.com %any : PSK "xxxxxx" <BR>wam.dns2go.com 0.0.0.0 : PSK "xxxxxx" <BR> <BR>Et voici mon ipsec.conf de mon Win2k <BR> <BR>conn wam <BR> left=wam.dns2go.com <BR> leftsubnet=192.168.1.0/24 <BR> right=%any <BR> presharedkey=xxxxxx <BR> network=auto <BR> auto=start <BR> pfs=yes <BR> <BR>Pour la ppp0, NON, elle ne tombe pas... <BR> <BR>_________________ <BR>------------------------------ <BR>ICQ : 1250455 <BR>------------------------------ <BR><BR><BR><font size=-2></font>

[belugha]

<!-- BBCode Quote Start --><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-2>En réponse à:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-2><BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Le 2003-06-12 10:17, _RyO_ a écrit: <BR>Voici mon ipsec.conf d'IPCop <BR>conn XYZ <BR> compress=no <BR> left=ryonet.dns2go.com <BR> leftsubnet=192.168.1.0/24 <BR> leftnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> type=tunnel <BR> authby=secret <BR> pfs=yes <BR> right=%any <BR> rightnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> auto=add <BR> <BR>et mon ipsec.secrets d'IPCop <BR> <BR>wam.dns2go.com %any : PSK "xxxxxx" <BR>wam.dns2go.com 0.0.0.0 : PSK "xxxxxx" <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><!-- BBCode Quote End --> <BR> <BR>Ton ipsec.conf doit contenir que la 1ère ligne. <BR> <BR> <BR>

[_RyO_]

ipsec.secrets, tu veux dire???

[belugha]

ouaip bien sur excuse moi <IMG SRC="images/smiles/icon_eek.gif">

[_RyO_]

Bah là ca marche carrément plus... <BR>Je ping meme plus une ou deux fois... Il reste sur Négociation de la sécutité IP. <BR>BUERGL

[JuLeS]

Essaye de mettre le même nom de connexion dans tes 2 ipsec.conf, et de mettre le même alias DNS pour le Left. <BR>Après, y'a pas de raison, ça doit tourner.

[belugha]

Essaye cela: <BR>ipsec.conf d'IPCop <BR> <BR>config setup <BR> interfaces=%defaultroute <BR> klipsdebug=none <BR> plutodebug=none <BR> plutoload=%search <BR> plutostart=%search <BR> uniqueids=yes <BR> <BR>conn XYZ <BR> compress=no <BR> left=ryonet.dns2go.com -> IP WAN ipcop <BR> leftsubnet=192.168.1.0/24 -> reseau LAN derrière Ipcop <BR> leftnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> type=tunnel <BR> authby=secret <BR> pfs=yes <BR> right= wam.dns2go.com -> Ip WAN nomade <BR> rightnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> auto=add <BR> <BR> ipsec.secrets d'IPCop <BR> <BR>ryonet.dns2go.com wam.dns2go.com : PSK "xxxxxx" <BR> <BR>ipsec.conf de Win2k <BR> <BR>conn XYZ <BR>compress=no <BR> left=ryonet.dns2go.com -> IP WAN ipcop <BR> leftsubnet=192.168.1.0/24 -> reseau LAN derrière Ipcop <BR> leftnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> right= wam.dns2go.com -> Ip WAN nomade <BR> rightnexthop=%defaultroute <BR> presharedkey=xxxxxx <BR> network=auto <BR> auto=start <BR> compress=no <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

[_RyO_]

C'est déja le cas... Les noms sont identiques des 2 côtés <BR> <BR>Moi je suis plus à me demander si il n'y aurait pas un problème avec la connexion Freesurf... C du 56kbps. Y a pas un problème de rapidité... j'en sais rien moi. Parce que y a kan meme 3 pings qui passent à chaque fois avant que je me fasse jeter

[belugha]

Quoi ??????????